I quickly on Friday alluded to a post on the Pyromaniacs site. If you have not ever read the site, you should check it out. There are a number of interesting and thought provoking posts there, tastefully and cleverly presented with a somewhat irreverent style. I very much enjoy the writings of the posters there, who I believe all are pastors and very well respected in their groups and denominations.
For instance, here was a post about a group in Jacksonville Florida who came from a background of tattoo’s, and used tattoos as a witnessing tool. They eventually felt that this was in conflict with the 2nd of the 10 commandments and had the tattoos removed. It is a great story, a powerful one. There are many others like that and other thought provoking subjects on the site. I do not agree with everything there, nor would I expect to. However after the post on Friday about Messianic Judaism, I went through a number of different emotions.
First I saw the post pretty late in the day on Friday, so I have had little time to react at first. Shabbat was coming soon, and although I am not legalistic about it, Shabbat is a time that I relax with my family. Saturday morning this week was services, which also was a wonderful celebration of a young boy becoming a man, and thus there was a celebration after that. I made a quick comment on the post page on Friday, then Saturday evening left a long one. I will post both of them here, and then further amplify my thoughts, plus add a few for what I think is a more sympathetic crowd here on my site.
Here is my comment from Friday:
Does “by removing all spiritual distinctions between believers” mean that all Jews must become Gentiles because they now accept Jesus as their Messiah? Should men and women dress the same because of this oneness? I, for one see nothing wrong with a cultural expression of faith.
Another question, would (or could) some of the same accusations be brought forward against, say, a Korean-American church, since that church would have a cultural response that non-Koreans would not understand?
Just like other parts of the body, Messianic Judaism can tend towards legalism, but it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater to discount what God is doing amongst the Jewish people through Messianic Judaism. No works justify us before God, whether works or the Mosaic Law or works that are the sum of the Law, loving God and loving our neighbor. Therefore, as long as it is kept in the proper perspective, like any good work, I can see nothing wrong with worshiping and celebrating salvation in a Jewish context.
Unless there is now something actually sinful about the Law God gave Moses. As long as it is done, like any other good work, with full knowledge that this does not make one better or justified in any way with God, then how could it be bad?
There was one other commenter who seem to understand where I was coming from, and others that did not. One saying that we do not become carpenters to become more like Yeshua. Well if Yeshua was the Master Carpenter, then I would think it might help to relate better if one actually did carpentry. Yeshua was perfect in righteousness, so emulating Him, seems to me to be an excellent way to become more righteous ourselves. If I wanted to be more like a certain guitar player, would I not try and follow his playing routine as close as possible, hold the guitar the same way, do the same exercises, etc? Maybe I would not need to wear the same clothes because that has little to do with the playing of the guitar, but if the standard of righteousness is the law and Yeshua kept it perfectly, then do what He did seems to me to make a great deal of sense.
Then after Shabbat was over I went back and more fully went through things. Here are my comments at that time:
Jesus is an English translation of the Greek word. Yeshua would be the Hebrew translation. Nothing more nothing less. Can’t see what is either cool or wrong about using it.
The fact is that many bad things have happened to Jews in the name of Jesus and right away it is hard to come to them and tell them that Jesus loves them when people like my grandmother have recollections from childhood of the “Christian” children calling her a Jesus killer because she was Jewish. Putting it all in a Jewish context is nothing more than showing that the same God that a Jew knows from whatever their Jewish background is (whether from knowledge of Torah or just knowing the Holidays) is the same God who sent his Son, and that He is the Messiah that they have heard about, and is the only one that could be the Messiah.
What many Gentiles do not understand is that Jews are taught from a very young age, that Jesus is fine for others but not for Jews. That is their thing and we have our own thing. Jews are taught they are the chosen people so why would they need saving?
Messianic Judaism contextualizes this for them so that they can come to accept it. While most of you have no problem and are wonderfully glad that Paul came with a wonderful gift to understand the heart and the mind of the Gentile.
In Acts 17 Paul contextualized the beliefs and concepts of the people in Athens, and because of it many wanted to hear more. Understanding your audience is something that many Gentiles do not do when speak to Jews about Jesus. Messianics do not wish for the churches to stop reaching out to the Jews, but maybe come and get some tips and come to a better understanding. Certainly the rate of success amongst the Jewish people is not something for the church to be proud of.
As for the using of G-d instead of God. Even to the Jew it has little to no meaning. Go ask an Orthodox Jew, or look at their websites, they will use one when it fits and another when it fits. It is a tradition and those that make more of it then it is just need to grow in maturity. That being said, I use it quite often cause I like it, not because it makes me cool, but because I recall it from my youth and it does help me in my reverence for God and His name. If it is silly to you, that is fine, however I see nothing sinful in me using it when I feel it appropriate.
Another thing to consider is that Messianic Judaism has been around since about the late 1960’s, maybe early 70’s. It is a very young movement. It has a great deal of room for growth in maturity. In the years I have been involved I have seen a great deal of growth, and while we keep to certain Holy Days and traditions, I have not had it taught to me that this is something that is necessary for salvation ever. Not at any congregation that I have attended (which is a few), now any that I have visited (which is a few), nor at any conference that I have attended. Most church doctrine is not measured in decades, and I am sure that during the first hundred years or so, there was much to learn and grow to become mature believers and leaders. Messianic leaders are becoming more mature. Have Messianic Jews made mistakes? Sure, if there is any church out there that has not, please let me know. It must be an empty place.
Personally I see way more freedom in the Messianic Congregations that I have been involved with than I had experienced prior in my time at churches. Churches, in my experience,do not handle differences very well for the most part, but at a Messianic congregation there is a great deal of differences. Some have head coverings and the prayer shawl, others do not. Some eat strictly kosher, other just eat what is called Biblically kosher, meaning avoiding the animals that are prohibited, others do neither and eat whatever they feel lead to, and they are not thrown out, or prayed for or anything like that. Each of us is following God in how He leads and we accept the others, for we know our salvation is not on whether we where a prayer shawl or not, but whether we put our faith in the Messiah, Jesus.
We might discuss different things and customs and certainly try to ensure that we are not making the practices more than what they are. They are wonderful symbols of our heritage and of our faith and of our salvation in Jesus. They may be a shadow, but as the Switchfoot song “The Shadow Proves the Sunshine” goes; “Shine on me,
Let my shadows prove the sunshine”. That is part of the heart of a Messianic Jew.We do not wish or think everyone else should be just like us, we do not doubt the salvation of other Christians, but an article like this certainly makes me sad to think that because I choose to celebrate the Sabbath, and on the seventh day, that there is something wrong with me or bad about my faith. I would encourage each of you to open your hearts and let God speak to them about something like this. Maybe it is just faith and faith alone and if that Messianic Jew wishes to celebrate, then God bless him, for he too has freedom in Christ to do so.
In the post, Steve Kreloff mentions the concept of unity, yet when I read the first verse of James I see he is writing to “the twelve tribes in the Dispersion”. Seems to me while there is a unity, there are still some differences, otherwise he could have just written to believers. Certainly there are differences between man and woman, yet even with those differences we can still be unified. A man’s retreat is not a bad idea because it is against unity of the body is it?
Anyway, I could go on forever, since this is a subject that is near and dear to me. Being a minority in a minority I wish that even though others Jews violently reject me, that I would not be rejected by brothers in Christ.
Peace to all (or if I wish to be “cool” I could say shalom, but I won’t).
I should mentioned that one of the normal writers to the site, called djp in the comments, seems to ridicule both the G-d and using Yeshua. And this is in a post speaking about legalism. So it is not legalism to require all to use the English translation of the Messiah’s name. And if I write G-d, then somehow my faith is inferior. Thanks for the freedom Dan.
The funny thing is that it is the site that tries to be hip and cool and here is one of the main contributors complaining that those that use the words are trying to be “cool”.
One thing that I did not cover there is that the impression that Messianic Jews are all about our practices might be because that is all Gentile believers ever ask us about. When I go to services, we do not hear message after message about how to observe this Holiday or this do this commandment. We get messages from our Rabbi’s about serving G-d, about no having fear of anything except G-d, about learning patience, about having a teachable spirit. However in my experience the first question anyone will ask when they find out that I am a Messianic Jew is something about whether I keep Sabbath or eat kosher or celebrate the Jewish Holidays. Truthfully we are not all about Holidays and foods (although we love to celebrate Holidays and most of them involve food),that is just part of our daily structure of our congregation. We are about growing and doing the great commandment, loving G-d and loving our neighbors as ourselves, and fulling the great commission and going out and trying to make disciples of the Jew first,and the Gentile as well. Our calling is to the unbelieving Jew, it is first, but we also have ministries that have nothing to do with Jewish outreach. We go into prison and homeless shelters to whoever is there and minister and share the love of G-d. We do not go in and teach them to eat kosher and follow Holy Days, but that Jesus died and rose again so that they could have forgiveness and a relationship with G-d.
One thing I find fascinating and this gets a bit beyond the actual words of the post by Steve Kreloff, but I am guessing that he might say these things. Whenever a verse is pointed out for a practice that Christians do not do, it is usually explained by the fact that it was written to the Jews and it is not for Gentiles, and by extension for Christians. However Galatians a book written to Gentile believers is for Jewish believers as well. Seems an awful lot like picking and choosing to me.
The main thing I came away from the article with is that my G-d is much bigger than the one described in this article by Steve Kreloff. My G-d can handle a Jewish expression of faith and a Gentile expression. My G-d works in the heart of every believer, and He does not care much for the practices as much as He does for the heart. One with a bad heart that sits in Steve Kreloff’s church and goes through the motion, might be a benefit to Steve and his church, but I don’t think G-d has much use for him. The same is true for a Messianic Jew that goes through the motions of celebrating Holy Days or eating only certain foods. G-d wants the heart of both Jew and Gentile and whether we are singing hymns or doing the hora, a pure heart directed towards G-d can be used for great purposes and brings great glory to G-d.
Anyway, I think most of my comments from the original site cover most of what I have to say. There was also a discussion that I particpated in on another site about this post. You can read that here. As of this time there was one comment I left this morning that still has not been posted. Maybe they are out for the day, or do not touch the site on Sunday. Either way, hopefully they will get that and post it as well. I actually enjoyed that discussion better than the one on the Team Pyro site. The Team Pyro site is so large that the comments are to diverse to really have a nice discussion. But with the two gentlemen on this other site, it seemed easy to discuss and I think the conversation flowed better and hopefully in a way that is uplifting and bring glory to G-d.
B”H
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10 responses so far ↓
1 Tom Albrecht // Jul 30, 2007 at 9:38 am
Unless there is now something actually sinful about the Law God gave Moses. As long as it is done, like any other good work, with full knowledge that this does not make one better or justified in any way with God, then how could it be bad?
The “bad” part is in failing to realize that the testimony of the New Testament is that certain aspects of the Mosaic law were temporary, a âshadowâ and âpassing awayâ. It is virtually impossible to read Galatians or Hebrews in the way suggested by messianics without doing great harm to Christian soteriology and ecclesiology.
What this leads to is either the implicit or explicit requirement that some or every part of the body of Christ follow these shadowy, temporary, cultic laws of old Israel. This is a dangerous suggestion when dealing with the souls of men.
2 B Z // Jul 30, 2007 at 3:03 pm
How can there be a requirement for the Body of Christ? It seems to me that if salvation is by faith and faith alone, everything after that cannot be a requirement, otherwise salvation is based upon something else.
Beyond that however, if G-d leads one to do this thing or that thing, whether it is to feed the poor family down the street, help out one who is in prison, worship Him on the seventh day, or to wear a cross, I cannot see how any of these things can be dangerous. It seems that you are indicating that by keeping certain days, days that you might not keep I am somehow putting my salvation in jeopardy.
I understand that to Gentiles the OT Biblical practices seem very foreign, however so did the Gentile practices seem to the believers back in the book of Acts, yet they resisted the urge to force certain types of behavior upon the Gentiles and offered fellowship based upon their faith.
I am not trying to say that Gentiles should do what Messianics do, however it seems all that there are more than a few Gentiles out there that basically feel that Messianics need to act a bit more like they do, to get rid of this Holidays, foods and the seventh day and become more like them. I am just asking that if we agree that salvation is based solely upon faith and not upon our actions, then could we not remain in brotherhood, even if we do disagree on practices such as this. The calling of Messianic Judaism as bad, without no qualification and then using terms like the “cultic laws of old Israel” seems to me to show little to no acceptance of Messianic Jews as part of the body of Christ.
These so called “cultic laws of old Israel, did Moses come up with them, did he and Aaron sit down, and write up a bunch of proposals and present them to God and say that this is how we want to live? I personally think it unwise for you to indicate that a practice that God asked the Israelites to do is somehow cultic, unless either God really hates the Jews and put these terrible Laws upon them, or you do not think that God gave these Laws to Moses.
What is wrong with some of the body following these things? Certainly if it is required for salvation then is not that just as bad and wrong as if feeding the poor was a requirement. It is certainly a good thing to feed the poor, however if your salvation depends upon it, then it is bad theology and the theology is bad, not the act.
May God grant you peace,
BZ
3 Tom Albrecht // Jul 30, 2007 at 7:44 pm
How can there be a requirement for the Body of Christ? It seems to me that if salvation is by faith and faith alone, everything after that cannot be a requirement, otherwise salvation is based upon something else.
Under the conditions of the old covenant, a member of the nation of Israel could be “cut off” for violating many of the cultic laws, what the NT calls the “shadows”, e.g.,
“27 Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (Lev. 23
)
Is it your contention that a believer in Jesus Christ today ought to be “cut off” from the people of God if they do not observe the day of atonement as specified in Leviticus?
This is the essence of the messianic dilemma. The attempt to transpose the old laws that were made for a temporary time for a nation which no longer exists, or rather which exists in a much different form from that which is found in the Old Testament.
Now, it is clear that God never rescinded Lev. 23
in part. Yet, the messianic, in order to advance their view of the shadowy law, must either modify (without divine authorization) or ignore these types of laws.
Or how about another:
“But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and ceases to keep the Passover, that same person shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of the Lord at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin.” (Num. 9:13
)
Again, do you believe that a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ ought to be “cut off” from the covenant people of God today if they do not observe the Passover? If not, on what basis to you set aside the clear law of God?
What is wrong with some of the body following these things?
Following what things? The Law as it was delivered by Moses, unaltered and contained in the Word of God? Or the unauthorized modifications of the messianics, who have had to write their own “Mishnah” and “Talmud” in order to explain and apply laws which passed away to a modern generation for whom they were not intended?
And what of the weak gentiles who are wrongly encouraged to follow these same laws? Does this not have the appearance of works-righteousness as far as they are concerned?
4 B Z // Jul 30, 2007 at 7:58 pm
I say that it is God that will judge who should be cut off from amongst His people and not me, so I try hard not to judge, I don’t see it as my role.
So you are either saying that there are absolutely no laws for a believer today, in which case I am free to do as I feel Scripture leads, or that there are still moral laws from the Torah that remain and if so, then you have modified the Torah. Deuteronomy 4:2
says not to add or subtract from the Law.
As far as weak Gentiles goes, those who are weak are weak, the same is true for those Jews who are weak. They find it impossible to accept Jesus after being called “Christ killer” and other things.
I am sorry, but I disagree with you. I do not judge you, but I disagree with you and I leave it from there for God to work on our hearts. I know for myself, I am on a journey. I have grown in maturity in the Lord over the years since I became a believer. I do not have all the answers today, nor do I expect to have them tomorrow. So, each day I sit down and read my Bible and I pray and as time goes by, things become clearer. Some things that I thought years ago, I do not think today. Possible next year my thoughts will be a bit different, possibly a lot different. I would venture to say the same for you as well, since I don’t think God is finished with any of us and I think we are all a work in progress. That is why I will leave these things to God to work on our hearts, and all I wish is for His truth to come through, regardless of whether it hurts my traditions or your traditions.
May you be blessed,
BZ
5 Tom Albrecht // Aug 3, 2007 at 9:00 am
I say that it is God that will judge who should be cut off from amongst His people and not me, so I try hard not to judge, I don’t see it as my role.
Are you saying hat no one in the church today fulfilled the role of determining who is to be “cut off” from the congregation based on violation of the Law? If so, then you obviously believe that the Law has been changed. If not, then who makes those determinations in the Church?
And you still did not answer my fundamental question; can a person be “cut off” today for not keeping Passover according to the explicit provisions of the old covenant? Can you offer an honest answer to that question that fits with your messianic theology?
So you are either saying that there are absolutely no laws for a believer today, in which case I am free to do as I feel Scripture leads, or that there are still moral laws from the Torah that remain and if so, then you have modified the Torah. Deuteronomy 4:2
says not to add or subtract from the Law.
The Church has taught for 2000 years (based on the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the NT) that the Law as modified at Christ’s coming into the world. All the ceremonial laws were done away with having been abrogated by Christ’s death and resurrection. The sacrifice laws were mere pointer to the coming of Messiah. The Levitical priesthood was done away with, since we now have a better High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 6:20
).
Messianic theology is defective in that, on the one hand it insists that the Law has not been changed, yet on the other hand must make allowances and invent traditions that reconcile a change in the Law based on circumstances. Changes which plainly are not directly authorized by the Word of God.
You can quote Deuteronomy 4:20
all day, but that fact remains that messianics have modified the Law just as much (if not more so) that non-messianics based on their circumstances.
The sad fact is that messianics come off as being more in touch with God’s holy Law than non-messianics because of their supposed “Hebrew roots”, but in reality they pervert the NT teaching on the nature of Christ’s death and bringing together all the nations into one people, the true kingdom of God in the Church. Whereas the apostle Paul and the others fought long and hard to break down the middle wall of partition, the messianics are doing their level best to build it back up again. It is sad to see God’s people once again divided along racial lines, such as in the time of Galatians when “certain men came from James” came to bring division to the Church.
Let me also add, in case I’m being misunderstood, that I have no problem with folks who have been raised Jewish to keep certain traditions they grew up with purely as traditions. When they begin to ascribe God-pleasing religious significance to those traditions, that is where I have a problem.
6 B Z // Aug 6, 2007 at 6:44 am
You said: Let me also add, in case I’m being misunderstood, that I have no problem with folks who have been raised Jewish to keep certain traditions they grew up with purely as traditions. When they begin to ascribe God-pleasing religious significance to those traditions, that is where I have a problem.
The things that Messianic Jews do are basically traditions. Traditions that are set forth in Torah. They are part of a calling. Some are called to Messianic Judaism, some not. Those called are no better than those that are not called.
The spirit of the Law is much more important than the letter of the Law. That is why God says that the blood of bulls, goats and lambs are not pleasing to Him(Isaiah 1:11
), when He has clearly said that it is (Leviticus 17:6
; Numbers 18:17
). The rote completing of the tasks of the law without a heart that desires to do it, is nothing to God. It is part of a love relationship. Salvation is based upon faith and faith alone.
Look, here is what I know. I know that the Torah is still alive and breathing, that is has not been done away with. What that exactly means to the believer today, I am not totally sure, that is part of my walk with God. That is why I do not have all the answers. Whether the Law has changed and in what ways it has is something God teaches me day by day, through the Word and prayer. I come to bring no division, nor to direct that anyone else needs to do the things that Messianics do. How Messianic Judaism can be compared to the situation in Galatians is something I just do not see. The situation then was of Messianic Jews of that day saying that everyone needs to become a Messianic Jew, needs to be circumcised in order to be accepted as a believer. I do not believe that you are any more or any less a believer if you are a Messianic Jew or if you are a member of a church.
However when it comes to God pleasing, I do think that the things Messianic Jews do can be God pleasing, without a doubt. Hopefully this is not as troubling to you as it may seem. Do you think the tradition of Christmas can be God pleasing? Certainly there are things about Christmas, especially in America that can be very unpleasing to God about Christmas (i.e commercialism, greed, etc.), yet celebrating the birth of the Messiah must be pleasing to God. In the same way, I think the Messianic Jewish way to do things can be pleasing to God as well. Can it also become bad if some become legalistic about it? Certainly, however just like Christmas it is not reason to then just throw the whole thing out because some have misused it.
Finally I wanted to list the statement of faith of my congregation. Of note is the fact that there is no mention at all of Torah, of Sabbath, of Biblical Holidays. They have nothing to do with the core of our beliefs, they are just the way we do things and we feel that what we are doing is “a very Jewish and a very Scriptural thing”.
Most likely this is not much different than the statement of faith of many churches. Certainly there are things that may be slightly different from this denomination to that one, but the basics of salvation is there. I think when we all have the basics of salvation in agreement, then we are all unified with Messiah. The other stuff is just stuff. Salvation is the crux of the issue. We can disagree on other things and I am sure we do, but we can do so in unity, and that being the case can feel that although the other side does not agree, it is something that ultimately we can laugh about together eternally.
That is one of the problems I have with the Steve Kresloff article. It states that Messianic Judaism is bad, but does not really go into what bad is, so to me I read it and some of the comments and must come away with feeling that it is I, the Messianic Jew who is somehow either inferior in my beliefs because I do these things, or that I am ultimately and completely wrong. In others words either I still need salvation or I am in serious need of prayer (as if I am in sin). If the article somewhere stated that most Messianic Jews have a good theology and have salvation and there is good that is done among the Jewish people bring Jews to a saving faith in Jesus, however some practices are troubling because of reasons x,y,z; then I would less of an issue, other than to just disagree. If that is your stance, then I appreciate it, for it represents brotherhood, and that is something that I think the body truly needs. If a Presbyterian and a Baptist and a Lutheran and a Messianic Jew can all show that type of unity to each other, accepting our differences, even in our disagreement, because our place of agreement is the foundational believe that bring life to the dead, then I think greater glory (and a greater harvest) can be brought to God in the name of His Son.
I think the level of division I see between denominations, whether Messianic Jews or any other church that is not the same as one is, is generally sad, since these minor things have risen to such a great level of importance, and we all spend so much time and effort on arguing amongst ourselves as to why this is bad and why I am good. Personally I want to move to things that are not a defense of what my religious practices are and move to how to better know God.
A last thing that I find interesting. I am reading a wonderful series of books by Dr. Michael L. Brown, called “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus.” It is interesting that some of the objections to Messianic Judaism are some of the objections to Jesus that many Jews have. Such as:
It is kind of sad that non-believing Jews and many Christians argue for the same points. It is the main reason for Messianic Judaism, to show that faith in the Messiah is Jewish, it is in accord with everything in Scripture. One reason for such a poor record of success for the church in witnessing to Jews is that Christians have little sensitivity to these customs and traditions of the Jewish people. I think many Christian missions to other peoples show much more sensitivity for their practices, even though the practices may be much more pagan than that of traditional Jews. Messianic Judaism works to show how the Jewish customs and traditions are not in contradiction, but as you believe show their true fulfillment in Messiah. Secondly I think Messianic Judaism does exist to show the Jewish roots of the faith to Gentile believers, many who have lost touch with it. That does not mean to evangelize Gentile to become Messianic Jews, but to appreciate the roots and heritage of the faith they already have.
That is what Messianic Judaism is all about. It is not about making other keep the Law. It is not even about making Messianic Jews keep the Law. There is no Matthew 18
because one member does not keep Kosher, or observe the Sabbath or whatever. However if one was getting drunk or involved with other sinful behavior then certainly, the congregational leaders would talk with the person, but not according to the traditional Jewish things, like Holy Days, foods, etc.
Hopefully this provides a better view of what Messianic Judaism is. Blessing to you.
7 Tom Albrecht // Aug 6, 2007 at 1:48 pm
I didn’t read this post before I responded in the other thread.
Let me say that in reading through this comment I come away with a sense of “so what’s the big deal?” Honestly, what you describe sounds like garden-variety independent, baptistic, dispensational churches found in many communities around the US. What is it that makes your congregation distinctively “Messianic Jewish”? Are most of the members ethnic Jews? What’s the Jew/gentile ratio? Do you subscribe to the Two House Theory?
Your last couple comments are quite telling and kind of get to the heart of the issue for many non-MJs:
That is what Messianic Judaism is all about. It is not about making other keep the Law. It is not even about making Messianic Jews keep the Law. There is no Matthew 18
because one member does not keep Kosher, or observe the Sabbath or whatever. …
Then, unlike murder, not keeping kosher is not a sin, and therefore something to which God Himself is morally indifferent.
Hopefully this provides a better view of what Messianic Judaism is.
The brand of Messianic Judaism that you describe here is quite different from other forms that have surfaced in recent years. Who speaks for Messianic Judaism? Who gets to define what is authentic Messianic Judaism and what is not? Is it acceptable within the definition of Messianic Judaism to require strict Torah observance of all members in the congregation regarding of ethnic background. Some folks who call themselves Messianic Jews make such a requirement.
Your brand of Messianic Judaism, if it can be called that, seems to be at the very liberal end of the spectrum. It sounds more like baptistic dispensationalism sung in a minor key rather than full-fledged Messianic Judaism of the UMJC variety.
My view of the law and what happened to it when Christ came into the world and accomplished the redemption of His people thereby instituting the new covenant is summarized in the Westminster Confession of Faith:
Hope this all helps.
8 B Z // Aug 6, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Quickly because I need to get to work, but I do not think there is a big deal. Messianic Judaism is very young, and needs much growth in maturity. There are many who go heavily into Talmud, etc. and get into dangerous areas (you can read my ongoing look at Postmissionary Messianic Judaism, which is a dangerous thing, because it is advocating Messianic to come under Rabbinic authority, which is quite absurd), and I think this is dangerous for Gentiles as well who like to know of the roots of their faith.
I think the best examples are generally UMJC congregations and MJAA congregations, but like anything else, one needs to be careful. I must return to work. I will try and respond some more this evening. Blessings,
9 B Z // Aug 6, 2007 at 4:53 pm
To continue my response. You note about the UMJC and the so called full fledged Messianic Judaism and compared to mine, however I first came in contact with Messianic Judaism at one of the larger UMJC Messianic Congregations. I was married there and grew greatly in the Lord there. I will be going back and visiting later this year. From what I hear from friends from there is that they do not get into much of the Postmissionary stuff either, and once again, although there was a stronger focus on Jewish things (mostly a defense of why we do them), it did not include anything of the sort of that we do them because it is necessary for all believers to do. I think back on the Pyromanics post there are some comments by Michael Bugg that speak to this as well. Michael stated:
Something that I’d like everyone here to keep in mind is that the Messianic/Hebrew Roots movement is by no means monolithic. We did not evolve out of a single congregation like, for example, the Presbyterians and Lutherans–and notice how much difference in teaching and emphasis one can find there! Rather, we developed as many different congregations which spontaneously sprung up (evidence, I believe, of a move of the Spirit); consequently, many of our doctrines, emphases, and attitudes vary greatly between different congregations–let alone individuals–and continue to be the subjects of much healthy debate among us today.
So there is much room for maturity in this for Messianics. Many get so excited about finding out that Jewishness and Jesus actually do go together. Remember as a Jew we are raised that there is absolutely no connection between Christianity and Judaism. This might seem odd to Gentile who have never had to consider things from this perspective. I would guess that to you it is such a natural thing, that you would think it obvious to everyone, however Rabbinic Judaism works very hard to keep the separation, for they know if the Jewish people understood, that many might see the truth that is in the Scriptures. Things like Isaiah 53
that to you and mean is clear as day about Jesus, the Rabbis teach is not about Messiah at all, but it is about Israel, the Jewish people. Even though there are many Rabbinic traditions going back that state that the verses are about Messiah, and Messiah son of Joseph as compared to Messiah son of David, and so forth. To a Jew to find this, it can be a breath of fresh air. To me, I became a believer before knowing of Messianic Judaism. I went to an Evangelical Free Church, although it was a Jewish person who witnessed to me (we worked at a bagel shop, how is that for Jewish!), however back in 1983 Messianic Judaism was quite small and about the only known Messianic Jewish thing was Jews for Jesus, which to a Jew was just the craziest thing ever. It was like two things that just don’t seem to go together, oil and water, etc.
Anyway, back to UMJC and the MJAA. It does seem that the UMJC can get involved in some things that are getting out there like PMJ, hopefully as we continue to discuss thing and the movement matures we will come to something more consistent across the spectrum of Messianic believers. I know go to an MJAA congregation and I do feel that it is much more mature than the other one was (at least to me at that time). As I mentioned we just do what we do, but do not spend all our time defending it or anything, but our messages are most likely similar to messages that you might hear in your church. Things about how to be patient, to wait upon God, to not be afraid of anything (except a healthy fear of the Lord). We had Pastor Loran Livingston speak to us this past weekend about what Jesus said about experiencing tribulation. It was an awesome message.
Anyway, I do think I would differ with you on many things, however, truthfully these things are not about salvation, and so I would say they are minor differences. I would say obviously that I would consider the ceremonial laws the same as the moral laws (I really do not see the separation that many Christians do as they seem to mix together in the same paragraphs and verses), and like you have quoted that the law is not contrary to grace, as a matter of fact it is actually through grace that we can keep it.
Anyway, I appreciate that we can come to some sort of understanding, and hopefully some acceptance. I really think that Gentiles come in contact with a much different Messianic Judaism than Jews do, and I don’t think it is just a matter of perception. I think there are groups that are motivated to make Gentiles follow the Torah, and thus they go and look for Gentiles churches interested in the roots of Christianity and thus many Gentiles experiences are with these over zealous groups.
For my own experiences through membership in two large (for Messianic Judaism) congregations and visiting a number of other congregations, plus listening to messages from some that I can find on podcast, I find that most are pretty good in their theology, especially those under the umbrella of MJAA (and maybe to a lesser extent UMJC), but certainly those outside of those two organizations, I try to avoid.
Blessings to you, thanks for all the comments. You have certainly kept me on my toes and in my Scriptures. Which is the blessing of doing this, that I can grow from this interaction. Hopefully we all can. Shalom,
Bryan
10 B Z // Aug 7, 2007 at 12:13 pm
One last response for you Tom to answer some of the questions you asked.
You asked:What is it that makes your congregation distinctively “Messianic Jewish”? Are most of the members ethnic Jews? What’s the Jew/gentile ratio? Do you subscribe to the Two House Theory?
The practices make us distinctly Jewish. We have services Friday night and Saturday morning. We celebrate the Biblical Holy Days and Feasts. Many eat what we would call Biblically kosher, meaning we avoid the foods describe to not eat in Torah, but do not get into the Rabbinic parts about not mixing milk and meat, and that the meat needs to be inspected by Rabbi’s trained, etc. As I mentioned, this is personal choice and some do more and others do less. Some do not work on the Sabbath, other attend services, and then work. Some go to services on Friday and work on Saturday. I think as with any congregation, there are some that take thing more deeply than others.
Most Messianic Congregation say they are 50% Jews and 50% Gentile, but in reality I think most are less Jewish than they care to admit. The one I go to know actually appears to be at least 50/50 and possibly even more Jewish than that. I do not have access to the actual figure, but I have been told it is closer to 60/40. I would not subscribe to the Two House Theory and I don’t think very many Messianic Jews do.
Then you asked:Who speaks for Messianic Judaism? Who gets to define what is authentic Messianic Judaism and what is not? Is it acceptable within the definition of Messianic Judaism to require strict Torah observance of all members in the congregation regarding of ethnic background. Some folks who call themselves Messianic Jews make such a requirement.
I think the response from Michael Bugg covered most of this in how loosely Messianic Judaism started and how decentralized it is. Most congregation I am knowledgeable about do not require strict observance of Torah, or of ethnic background. As I made mention, Mark Kinzers book seem to recommend things like this as part of “redefining Christian engagement with the Jewish people”, but I really do not think it is something that will gain broad appeal, because the ideas are rather radical and call for a large jump in beliefs.
Hopefully I have covered for you most of your questions, and hopefully Messianic Judaism is less frightening then it has been for you. It is mostly a cultural expression of our faith in the Messiah. I do think, by thinking of things from the Jewish believer perspective we help to avoid and prevent overzealous attitudes against Jewish things by some believers, as has happened on occasion throughout history. I think that plus the contextualizing of the faith and putting it back into the context of first century Israel, helps to make it relevant to the Jewish people and both things are an important calling especially as we move towards a time when all Israel will be saved and call out “Baruch Haba BaShem Adonai” (Blessed be He who come in the Name of the Lord).
Peace and blessings to you.
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