Y Not I

After the response to Steve Kreloff and the post from the Pyromaniacs site, there was a link to another site that is by Charles Sebold and Patrick Chan called Talking Out of Turn. The post has the same name as the Team Pyro article, Is “Messianic Judaism” a Good Idea?

The post was nothing more than Charles say he could not agree more with the post by Kreloff, so the meat of things is in the comments, so please go and give them a read. However the comments for that post have been closed. It is curious because it says that they will close on August 10 and it is prior to that date now. Regardless, I have crafted a response to the last few comments, which were from Patrick. I truly enjoyed being able to talk to them and it is a wonderful thing when people who basically share one thing in common, and that being our salvation can come and speak in a peaceful manner about subjects that can easily become highly charged. So I print my response here, since, for what ever reason I am unable to post it there. If either of the site owners see this and want to add it to the discussion there for sake of completeness, feel free to copy and paste it there.

Once again please go there and read through the entire thread before this response.

I really think we agree in far more things than any of us thought as when this all started. However the article from Steve Kreloff implies that Messianic Judaism as a whole is a bad idea and Charles stated in this post that he totally agreed. It seems from reading the comments that you both do not totally agree with the article, but with the dangers that the article points out.

There were a few things in the comments from Patrick that I wanted to answer of address.�

Hm, I gotta ask, what do you mean by �if they are so called�? Aren�t the Scriptures sufficient to determine whether or not a church should be celebrating Rosh Hashanah, or other Jewish holidays?

What I mean is that these are not salvation issues. We are all walking and growing in our walk with God. I see us all at different places and with different callings. Paul was sent to Gentiles, yet that does not mean that we should all go to Gentiles as our main focus of our calling. If a congregation felt as a group a desire to celebrate this or that Holy Day, I think that is a fine thing. If a group does not feel called to it, that is fine as well. I am really not about any form of elitism at all. I see so much of that in different groups, this desire to be the one that has it all down, and I see us a flawed, and it is Gods perfection that we are striving towards, but we all have a long way to go. Because I reject much of that superior type of thinking I tend to try not to judge the actions of others. Internally I can say that person is probably not really saved, because I do not see any fruit, however I try and leave it to God to do the judgment. I also realize that everyone is on their own path and some are far more along than other in one thing, but far behind them in other things. So that is why I like to leave it at the salvation issue and basically that as where I draw the line as to actual beliefs. Beyond that salvation and what it takes to obtain, and I have no doubt that we are on the same page, the rest is things that we are all working out. I do not think anyone or one group has it all 100%. I think we are all going to come before God and realize just how small all our theologies are as compared to the truth of what it is really all about. Anyway, without getting too far off the subject (too late!) that is what I meant about the calling thing.

Blowing a shofar or not blowing a shofar is not going to save either one of us, even if it is in the Law, because the Law doesn’t save. I don’t think it ever did, but that also is another subject. Feed the sick or any other work, doesn’t save, although they are good things to do. Blowing a shofar is a good thing on that day I think.

To get into how I perceive the High Holy Days is another interesting subject. The congregation I went to in Southern California (San Diego to be precise), held the services in a very traditional way. My wife and I did not care for it for the reason you point out, it is so solemn after Rosh Hashannah and it just didn’t fit, especially since the reason if wondering whether we made it into the Book of Life for another year. Some of us would talk about it and even non-believer Jewish people that we brought were not impressed, for it was no different than a traditional synagogue. There was nothing in Yom Kippur that showed that our atonement had been taking care of.

However in the congregation that I am now a part of (in the Atlanta, Georgia are, so about as far from SoCal as one could get), I see a great deal of difference. There is a slight touch of solemness to the services but I think it is more because there are so many of our Jewish brothers and sisters that have not found the atonement that has been provided for them. We use that as a encouragement to continue to pray for the veil to be removed, but overall the service is more balanced, and it is filled with a great deal of joy as well, since we know that we are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. The other congregation I think was not as mature as this one is. Maybe that is why God lead us to this “promised land” of peaches and peanuts, and I do not really know where the other congregation is at now, but at the end of our time there we felt like we not getting fed enough (although that was not the reason for the cross-country move), that it was mostly milk and we were ready for something more meaty. I really think we got it here and that has been a wonderful blessing.

I really think from reading your comments that most of my objections are more to the Steve Kreloff article and nothing I see here. See, I would much rather see an article about the dangers that could come from Messianic Judaism and within that article at least point out something good, for an article, like that one, states this is bad, this is bad, and this is bad, and then just drops off, however the title asks a question, so the conclusion must be an answer and it seems obvious that the answer to the question is no it is not a good idea, and if it is not a good idea anyone� who is Messianic Jewish is also by extension bad, and thus it would be good if Messianic Judaism would go away, and if so then there is no more Jewish expression of true faith in Messiah. I wish Kreloff would have completed the thoughts, because maybe he would then say that there are some good elements, and so on and the conclusion would not need to be guessed. I think a question was asked it should at the very least be answered. for by not answering he has left it to the individual to guess at the conclusion he is getting at. I concluded that the answer is not and so forth and by Charles totally agreeing that he and Patrick as well also conclude that Messianic Judaism should be done away with. It seems that my guess at the very least your conclusion is wrong, so possible Steve Kreloff’s conclusions are possibly different as well (and Phil Johnson and Dan Phillips as well). The implications through are that they all think it a very bad thing indeed and to that I hardily disagree, even though I like their site, and enjoy reading it and agree with much of what they say and post about.

I have also now found your site and enjoy this as well. I will add it to my Netvibes feeds and be able to keep up with the posts that appear here, and possible on other subjects I could chime in as well.

I hope I have provided for interesting discussion and possibly provoked some thought that maybe some have not thought about prior.

Once again I wish blessings to both Charles and Patrick and thank you for the forum to discuss this topic, which is obvious one that is very important to me. Shalom,

I need to go through my links. There are many modifications that need to be done, one being add this website, so you can keep up with it as well.

B”H